These pugs aren’t house-trained.

perky pug

Aw, isn't he cute?

I’m actually a fairly easy-going person. In all the time I spent pugging with Vidyala on her way to eighty, I really didn’t meet very many people that made me angry. Oh, I met some jerks, and it’s pretty well-documented here when I did, but not too many.

Things have changed since the only pugging scene I see is the eighty heroic one, and it’s getting pretty tiresome. A few recent examples, just to illustrate my point:

The scene: Heroic Pit of Saron

Voss and I queued for a random and were immediately fitted into a group that had lost its tank and one DPS. (I wanted to take my ret set out for a spin!) Of course they were more than halfway through the instance; having stalled at the gruesome trash pull as you head up the slope. We defeated it without any problems while the group went on about how they had a “tank who could actually tank.”

Tellingly, the mage was AFK for all of this trash, only deigning to join us again as we approached the corridor to run up to the final encounter. That went reasonably smoothly, even though I was doing something like 40% of the group’s DPS. This is sad mostly because I don’t think I’m all that good at being ret, although my gear is decent. We kill Tyrannus in the Longest Kill Ever, and he drops some things. The mage starts complaining, presumably because he was after the Never Melting Ice Crystal, and then he says, “Does anybody need that?” (A spellpower staff). Usually that’s what people ask when they themselves need it. So we all said that we didn’t need it. The mage rolled needed on the staff, said “Great, that’s my gold then :p” and then dropped group.

I’m left appalled that people can be so blatantly greedy and rude. I hope it isn’t reaching a point where we’ll all have to Need on things we can just to avoid people who think they’re entitled to loot more than anyone else. Did he think that any of the rest of us wouldn’t also sell the staff for the gold, or disenchant it or whatever? I have no words.

The scene: Heroic Old Kingdom

Voss is playing his DK and a bunch of us had queued together, leaving only one pug slot. It starts out harmlessly enough with an exchange of hellos and etcetera. I’m playing my moonkin main so I have to admit, I haven’t been paying very much attention. I am just hurting things and coasting along. I had pulled aggro at one point, but Starfall often does that to me. We’re all on vent just hanging out and shooting the breeze, when the mage pug says in party, “You know death and decay is great for making aggro.”

“Is he being bitchy?” I wonder incredulously in vent. Since we’ve been doing alt runs and getting gear for him, Voss’ DK has rock-solid aggro.  I haven’t noticed him losing aggro. He’s also Frost, and D&D is on a 30 second cooldown, plus most mobs die so quickly any way. It’s a heroic. It’s trash. It’s heroic trash. Seriously? And the mage is doing a good deal less DPS than either of us. We immediately go into “Why are you messing with our guildie mode,” I ask him if perhaps he has a magic button that will enable him to do decent DPS, and if so he should press it. Stews stops healing him (though he says later that he kept bandaging and potting so he never did die). We finish the instance without further words on either side (the wait was too long to just kick him).

Again, we met rudeness with some of our own, but I just can’t understand people being rude without provocation. I’ve run with some truly terrible tanks in my LFD adventures. When I run with a tank like Voss on any of his characters, it’s like the heavens open up and angels sing and there’s a shaft of sunlight that says, “Lo! And there shall be threat generation!” Then I’m happy. Even when the tank is terrible, I don’t say so, what’s the point?

The scene: Heroic Oculus

I still groan inwardly (and outwardly) when I see the loading screen for this place. It isn’t that it’s hard. It’s that herding three other chickens through it always proves to be an exercise in frustration. The other issue is that when we do it, we like to go and clear off the first platform initially. Then we proceed to the inner ring, so that there’s no backtracking. You have to kill all the platform sentry guys anyhow.

For whatever reason, pugs have trouble with this concept. They feel we should proceed directly to the inner ring. Rather than following along with (usually the tank and the healer, although this time I was DPSing again) we went to the platform. They went to the inner ring. Voss said (politely!) “Hey guys, this way,” and immediately one of the other DPS got snippy. “We have a tank and a healer here,” he said, “Just go.”

“Actually, I’m the tank, ” Voss said. Rather than deal with it, we just dropped group and took the debuff. The looong debuff. I was left hand-wringing, “I just wanted to hit some things in the face with my giant sword. Is that too much to ask?” When did people start getting precious about which way they’d go in Oculus? Is it really That Big A Deal to just roll with where the tank and healer are going? It isn’t as if we’re this huge prima donna pair (I am the tank so I can do whatever I want, that’s what being the tank means).

That’s only a random sampling of recent heroics with this kind of thing in them. I’m not sure what it is about hitting 80 that causes people to abandon any semblance of civility, but it’s pretty tiresome. Vid has pretty much purchased almost everything she could want with frost emblems, and she’s starting to spend them on retribution gear at this point, so it isn’t a really urgent mission for me. None of my characters need the daily frost emblems and so I only queue for a heroic if someone in the guild is going and needs another person, or if I want to try something out (such as my retribution spec). But even for that, it’s really not worth it.

Am I alone in this? I’m guessing I’m not, at least one of my guildies routinely winds up in Pugs From Hell. (Whenever he goes without one of us, I’m not really sure if he has bad luck… or if pugs are just bad.) Tell me your pug horror stories, get it off your chest. Or better yet, tell me about a pug you’ve had that’s been just really good. I need to believe that not all people pugging at eighty are complete jerks!

But then when you least expect it...

p.s. – I’m planning a sort of a contest, I just have to get a few things ironed out before I share the details, but stay tuned for that. I think it is going to be great fun.

About these ads

39 responses to “These pugs aren’t house-trained.

  1. I will still occasionally run heroics with friends, just to see things die at a breakneck pace, and to try and pull off my buddy when he tanks, but beyond that I won’t queue. 2 emblems a day is not worth the pain that is the dungeonfinder, I get enough of it on my lowbie alts.

  2. I’ve found that just going along with what pugs want to do is so much less of a hassle. If they want to do the inner ring of Oculus instead of the outer platforms first, then I just go ahead and do it. It really isn’t a time difference and I figured out long ago that dropping group because the pugs weren’t doing something the way I wanted was bad.

    Same with dealing with snarky comments. If a guy says to me “You know Wild Growth heals multiple people” then yeah he’s an ass but I’m not going to stop casting Wild Growth on him. That just lowers me to his level, “Oh you insulted my healing so I’m going to let you e-die.” I used to be petty with those things but then I realized that if I kept quiet and just pressed Wild Growth/Swipe or whatever other role I was doing, it’d be another 10 minutes tops before we finished and I got my gold and frost emblems

  3. Ha!

    Do you want me to just start putting up my links on the recent failpugs? ;-) I think I can come up with a really good pug that I went through in the past month, if you want it.

    I’ve often wondered what it is about The Oculus that people hate about it so much. I admit I like it a lot better than The Nexus, and no, I’m not saying that because I want that Drake mount. I speculated once that it was because when you’re fighting on a Drake you can’t rely upon your iL264 gear, so you have to actually pay attention to the fights.

    Maybe you’re right, and that people get tunnel vision on how to run The Oculus, and any deviation from that makes people freak out. I’ll admit that I got lost with the vertical component the first couple of runs, but I learned to stay with the tank and I’d be fine. (Isn’t that 90% of successful pugging?)

    I know that Cassandri had mentioned in a post about how she’d discovered that Ahn’aket is now a three boss instance; same with Halls of Stone. (UP is now a two boss instance to some people.) Have you run into that scenario?

  4. I haven’t run too many pugs recently so I don’t have all that many horror stories. One recent pug bears mention. It was a heroic Forge of Souls, and I was tanking on Traxy. We came across one of those pairs of tall skeletons. I mark one with a skull, then go in with a Howling Blast and then a normal single target rotation. A warrior in the party charges the unmarked mob, and about ten seconds later pulls aggro on it. I taunt it right back, and then remark afterwards, “You know, I mark these up for your benefit.”

    The warrior wasn’t finished, though. Right before the first boss, the healer had to leave the instance to go get some water. The warrior pointed to one of the mobs on the side that no one pulls and ordered me to open fire. I thought to myself “No, I don’t pull optional mobs when the healer is gone.” The warrior started to dance toward the mobs, and sure enough, he face pulled them. I decided right then and there to stand there and not do anything, in the hope that the mobs wouldn’t touch me if I didn’t touch them. (In retrospect, I should have shadowmelded. I do that so rarely that I don’t think about it.) The other dps did their best to help kill the other mobs, but they couldn’t do the job without a tank and a healer. Once the warrior died, I joined in, and with my self heals I was able to stay up until the healer got back. But it was not a fun situation.

    The kicker to all this was that after the run was completed, the warrior asked us all if we wanted to continue on to Pit of Saron, as if he were a model pugger that we enjoyed running with. I declined politely, probably far too politely.

  5. You’ve already heard more of my bad-pug stories than anybody has a responsibility to listen to, but I’ll offer you one more, since there seems to be a virtually endless supply. :)

    One fine summer afternoon, we zoned into Gun’drak, where our randomly-chosen Tauren Warrior tank was fully kitted out in Heirloom gear and a stupid cow joke for his name. If this were normal Gun’drak, the heirlooms would usually be a good sign, but it’s heroic, and the heirloom gear for plate wearers is not exactly swimming in defensive stats. However, since I’m fairly newly 80 myself, so my gear isn’t exactly a shining beacon of epicness either, so I wasn’t about to complain. Besides, everyone deserves a fair chance to prove they can do it, even if their gear isn’t the best.

    Now, there are three things an ideal tank should have, so that the healer can do her job: Lots of health, lots of mitigation, and lots of threat. It’s fine if the tank is a bit short in one of these areas; we can generally cope with that. With smart play, it’s even possible to cope with deficiencies on two of these axes. But it takes a truly epic group to deal with a tank who has low health, low armor, and low threat. This fellow was one of those.

    As a Discipline priest, my general motto is “bubbles will fix it,” and that’s generally true; but on this particular day, our tank was taking rather more damage than bubbles and Penance alone could sustain. I managed to keep him and the others alive, but only by running out of mana on practically every trash group, and having everything on cooldown. Keeping everyone alive was an exercise in pulse-racing cooldown timing, too, because everyone had threat on something.

    Fortunately, it turned out that two of our DPS were playing pretty smart. When I hear a mage’s Ice Block or a rogue’s Vanish go off in response to misplaced aggro, my estimation of their skill increases greatly. You might argue that these are basic tools any player should use, but my standards have been lowered by too much puggery. Even so, the group’s damage was quite low, and so things were taking a very long time to die.

    By dint of double-potioning, liberal use of the Shadowfiend, and heavy drinking, I managed to keep everyone alive all the way up till the last boss. As I’m sure you know, Gal’darah gets very angry partway through the fight, and turns himself into a mad raging rhinoceros, who impales one or more of your groupmembers on his horn and flails them around the room like a ragdoll. I’ve been spoiled by the fact that most groups these days kill him before he has a chance to do this more than once.

    Well, we got to the point where he’d done this three times, twice on the Mage and once on the Rogue. He’d reverted to his Troll form once more, and was pounding on the tank. I bubbled the tank, and was basically bone-dry on mana, so I popped my Shadowfiend and was poised to hit Penance as soon as I had enough juice for it, when I happend to look over and see the Warlock…

    … who was at about half mana …

    … wanding the boss.

    I hit Penance, and while it channeled, I typed in party chat, “if you’re not OOM, you shouldn’t be wanding.” I mean, come on! Wanding? Let’s finish this already! Surely you have spells that hit harder than that? (I’m crying this out at my screen)

    At this moment, Gal’darah begins to whirlwind.

    The Rogue runs out.

    The tank spikes.

    He’s still got Weakened Soul, and Penance is on cooldown. I hit him with Pain Suppression, and start casting Flash Heal, but it’s too late; he dies.

    Fortunately, about five seconds later, the Mage and the Rogue kill Gal’darah, who was verrrry close to dead anyway, and so nobody else dies.

    The tank says, “maybe if u werent such a dumb c**t u would heal me instead of saying stupid shit”. (Except he spelled it out).

    Was it my fault he died? Yeah, it probably was. Probably he should have used Shield Wall (he didn’t) and/or Last Stand (he didn’t), but in the end, it probably was my inattention that let him fall. Still, after that comment, I wasn’t about to resurrect him. People with foul mouths, bad gear, and stupid cow puns in their names just don’t really do it for me.

    Now, this story has a slightly happier ending, in that the rest of the group was really supportive of me, and once he and The Wanding Warlock had dropped group, they said I did a great job of healing. So, even in a “bad” pug, you do find decent folks, even if they don’t necessarily do the most damage you’ve ever seen.

    Pugs. Proof that hell truly is empty, and all the devils are online.

  6. I never do Heroic pugs anymore unless I’m with at least 2+ friends. It’s just not worth the stress and aggravation. Everyone thinks they know how to do things better than you, and god forbid if you aren’t the latest cookie-cutter “top” spec from Elitist Jerks. I’ve lost count of how many times some snobby pug mocked me for being Beast Mastery while gearing up, despite me tripling their damage done.

    We actually just ran into a jerk pug person the other day, when we decided to do ToC10 for kicks and achievements, and to gear up our (severely) undergeared hunter guildie. We had about 7 people and pugged 3 more, including a decently-geared (5000 gs) rogue.

    After a wipe on Jaraxxus he loudly remarked what a person with 2700 GS (the hunter) was doing in here. Needless to say, our guild chat was not pleased, especially since the much better-geared rogue was only doing 500 dps more than our hunter. The RL gave him an awesome retort of “Yeah, we’re carrying a bunch of people tonight”, leaving the rogue a great chance to get snippy and get himself kicked…but he didn’t. /shrug

    We wiped on Faction Champs, and he started complaining again how he had guys on him and couldn’t the tanks get them off him, etc. We quickly and firmly told him a) they have no real aggro table, and b) nobody wanted to hear his whining. He shut up, but we all hated him now.

    He wasn’t done though. When we were splitting into sides for Twins, everyone went to the proper side except…you guessed it! the rogue. We started saying in /raid and /s to get him to the right side, a few times, and then he told someone ELSE to just switch colors. Even worse? The person he was trying to boss around was the raid leader. A furious raid warning went out telling him to switch to his proper side NOW. He did. But ohhhh, how we loathed him.

    So yeah. Gotta love pugs. :\

    • Everyone thinks they know how to do things better than you, and god forbid if you aren’t the latest cookie-cutter “top” spec from Elitist Jerks.

      I find this attitude particularly irksome, because most of the theorycrafting on Elitist Jerks, while very good, is directed at optimizing performance in a progression raid setting. Most of their talent builds assume you have particular gear, raid buffs, consumables, group synergies, and coordinated cooldowns, on single-target boss encounters that you don’t outgear. With Emblems of Triumph, a new level 80 can buy gear that trivializes all the raid content up to ToC. And heroics? I mean, come on. Those were designed to be a challenge to people in blue item-level 187 quest rewards; if you’re sporting Triumph badge gear or better, you should be able to blow the doors off it, regardless of spec.

      It’s easy to get decent gear and to copy a raider’s talent build, without understanding it, and do very badly. For example, I often run into Resto druids who copied a high-end raiding spec with zero points in Celestial Focus. I don’t have any points in CF either—but that’s because I have enough haste from gear that I don’t need to. The cookie-cutter won’t tell you that kind of thing; learning how to play a class well requires more than just dressing up like other people who play it well.

      That said, I’m happy to raid with people who are casual, and don’t want to spend all their time learning every little thing about their class. As long as they don’t complain about others. :)

      • Triumph, a new level 80 can buy gear that trivializes all the raid content up to ToC. And heroics? I mean, come on. Those were designed to be a challenge to people in blue item-level 187 quest rewards; if you’re sporting Triumph badge gear or better, you should be able to blow the doors off it, regardless of spec.

        That’s why I like the Heroic ICC 5-mans so much. They were designed to get you ICC raid ready, so the T9 gear is an absolute minimum before you get into PoS and HoR. (FoS is more forgiving; I got in there with mostly iL200 gear.)

  7. Long time reader, first time commenter.

    I have to say throughout all my LFDing (and time spent in game for that matter) the only time i ever came across assholes was in Heroics. I’m not sure what happened but it was as if someone had flicked a switch from nice and friendly to, spiteful, greedy and lazy.

    Case in point the first time i ever ran a northrend dungeon we had an 80 Mage and Shaman in the group. I have never before felt so belittled and insulted as much as i had in that first run. They were rude and pompous and met any chat with “STFU NOOB lololol!!!”

    It nearly put me off doing dungeons all together.

    Thank god for guilds eh ;)?

  8. This post got me thinking – i have been doing fewer and fewer heroics lately – it wasn’t intentional, but I had a string of, not Lara-esque horrible (see above), but not so good ones (slow, mistake prone…)

    I guess it is just Blizz’s matching logic – but i tend to always have low geared people. Maybe its my good deed for the day to heal them :)

    I rarely get an ICC heroic – but its a bit refreshing because, like Redbeard said, you have to have a minimum level, implying people generally have more experience. I know that is not always case and Garfrost probably is the boss i’ve wiped to most on in pugs.

    One particular frustrating thing happened just yesterday. A guy went AFK immediately after zoning in – we let him hang around for 5 minutes (through the 1st boss) but we then tried to vote kick him and it said he “…couldn’t be kicked again for another 24 minutes” , huh? kicked people have a grace period?

  9. Your first example of a bad pugger had me quite stunned, but I have to admit I think you’re being a bit harsh on the other two.

    Like, the guy who sounded like he was snarking at your DK tank might very well have been the “don’t really have a clue but is trying to be helpful” type. You know, trying to drop hints since he thought he should see D&D get used more often from what he knows about death knights himself. Maybe not polite, but unless he said more than what you posted here, immediately shunning him might have been an overreaction.

    Same with the Oculus pug – snippy? Yeah, but from the way you told it here, the other guy might as well be writing his own blog post about a really rude tank and healer duo that immediately dropped group when they saw that the rest of the group didn’t want to go their way…

    My own last couple of weeks doing heroics have been pleasantly quiet actually. *knock on wood* But next time a bad pug rears its head you’ll be sure to hear about it!

    • Actually, if I may, I do believe that you’re wrong. If I was to question why Death and Decay was not used, I would ask a question. Not say that it’s great for aggro. If I was a dps and I pulled or saw that aggro was a problem, I would simply apologize for pulling and say something like I’m trying to watch my aggro. The way he said it was saying that there was not enough aggro generated, and even worse, that I did not know my class.

      And for Occulus, we did ask politely for them to follow us to which they did not reply. They simply told each other to go on and ignore what I had asked. This, to me, sounded quite rude but I could be too sensitive.

      I think what’s affecting the pugs right now is the kids are out of school. Every summer it happens, the players become ruder and suddenly, September is like a breath of fresh air.

      • I think what’s affecting the pugs right now is the kids are out of school. Every summer it happens, the players become ruder and suddenly, September is like a breath of fresh air.

        Hmm…. That’s what we need: a good set of tests for the kids to focus their attention on.

      • I’m not disagreeing that it was rude; I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and in this case I could at least see why someone might think they are being helpful, as opposed to randomly insulting.

        Or maybe I’m just jaded, but for me one disparaging remark directed at the tank and a group wanting to go “the other way” hardly qualify as bad pugs anymore…

      • I believe Vid said that sometimes she was pulling aggro with Starfall. Maybe he was being an ass but ONLY saying “DnD is great for holding aggro” hardly qualifies. If it’s a frost DK they rarely DnD because HB provides so much snap aggro but I have seen tanks that just HB on heroic pulls and think they’re set on aggro and bypass Pestilence or tab-target just to wait for the HB cooldown so they can fire it again. He had probably seen the same thing and was just recommending you use DnD…in a not so jovial way. He definitely could’ve been more polite, but Frost tanking in heroics is perhaps the most OP in terms of AoE threat, even eclipsing Paladins, so maybe he thought you could truly use the advice, regardless of whether you could or couldn’t. From what the blog said he wasn’t doing enough DPS to pull aggro anyways, so I don’t think he would’ve apologized for pulling and saying he’d watch his threat.

        And I’m in Shintar’s boat here about the Oculus incident. That paragraph really didn’t sound very Vid at all. You didn’t say sometimes you have to lead a dense group through, you said that you always have to herd “three other chickens” through it. And that “for some reason, pugs have a hard time with this concept.” I mean I’d understand the frustration if you were taking some alternate, much quicker and all around better route, but choosing the inner ring as opposed to the outer platform is just splitting hairs. The vast majority of Oculus LFDs I’ve done, we’ve just gone through the inner ring first. The inner ring is just closer to where you get your drakes and seems more convenient. They probably just wanted to finish it as fast as possible, and it came down to either the three of them flying to the outer platform or the two of you flying to the inner platform. Leaving the group because they didn’t choose your path seems petty. It was a weird paragraph because I’m used to Vid giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and trying to help them until they start being a prick, in which case she understandably grows ill of them quickly. In the Oculus case she goes in there saying she will have to herd these three chickens around and groans because it isn’t hard but those dumb pugs just can’t understand simple things.

        First guy though? Huge douchebag. I’ve been reading this blog long enough to know you won’t give out individual names Vid, but jackasses like that deserve to be scolded. Maybe RealID will fix all this.

      • I suppose I should weigh in on this since it’s my courtesy (or lack thereof) under discussion. Perhaps I am short on patience and didn’t give these other groups or people the fair benefit of the doubt (although I truly think that in the case of the guy in Old Kingdom he was being needlessly rude). I pulled aggro with Starfall because I stupidly cast it too near a group that hadn’t actually been pulled. I try to be careful with it but sometimes I goof up!

        About the DnD thing, there are just ways to comment on such things if you feel you must. For example, in the same situation, if I didn’t know any of the party and I was pulling aggro, I might say, “Gee, I’m really sorry I keep pulling aggro, I’m trying to watch my threat,” which can be taken at face value as “I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be a jerk,” but can also be an invitation for the tank to speak up if he needs help. He could say, “Oh yeah, I’m still working out my rotation,” or maybe, “This is an alt I just got to 80 and I know my threat generation isn’t so great,” or he can just say “np,” which acknowledges your statement but means he doesn’t really want to get into it further. And that’s his prerogative. Then you could always follow up with, “Oh yeah, on my DK when I tanked I had trouble but found that always making sure I used DnD every CD helped a lot.” I guess (ironically) I’m a stickler for social niceties, and I would never dream of criticizing someone else unprovoked in that passive aggressive sort of “I’m going to pretend I’m just making a general statement but really what it means is that I think you suck.” I don’t think people would defend me if I said out of the blue to the mage, “Arcane blast before Missiles does damage,” so I guess I’m at a loss to understand why making obvious statements to the tank (who was doing a fine job) is somehow more acceptable.

        As for the Oculus, I suppose the exact way you go is splitting hairs, but I don’t think it’s radical to just go where the tank is going. Maybe it’s old school to think, “I will follow the tank,” but it’s pretty ingrained for me. For example, if I joined an Oculus pug all by my lonesome – I wouldn’t pitch a fit “You do it the outer ring first WTF is your problem noobs,” – I’d hop on a dragon, look for the person riding the red dragon (typically the tank, anyhow) and go with the flow. I know the dragon riding can get confusing, so more than any other place it just gets frustrating when the group doesn’t stick together at all. I suppose the path of least resistance is to just go along with whatever is going, and perhaps it’s petulant of us to get frustrated. I’ve said before that in order to understand random pug jerks you must become the jerk. Maybe in these cases it was me.

      • Maybe all of us could be a bit more patient in random groups, but my sympathies are with Vid and Voss in this case. An uncooperative group can turn a fun, wholesome dungeon run into a large, unpleasant repair bill decorated with insult sauce right quickly.

        Were those people actually bad? Perhaps not. But experience suggests otherwise. Rather than get into a big fight about it, I think Voss and Vid did the right thing—dropping group does not hurt anybody, and it avoids a pointless conflict over what is, ultimately, an unimportant matter.

        Among my friends, we have an informal rule: If someone proposes a group activity, and you don’t like it, you can veto it—but only if you can suggest at least one alternative you would agree to. It’s a good rule, because it’s a lot easier to just say “no” to things than it is to make constructive suggestions. We don’t always get consensus, but at least we don’t get stuck in perpetual loops of “no, not that.”

        I think pugs should work like that too.

    • Yeah and I don’t think you had any intentions of being a jerk, I just think in the case of the Oculus you went in with the mindset of having to lead the “three chickens” through the instance and you wanted them to put up as least resistance as possible. In any case it made the rest of the group wait another 5-10 minutes for another tank, which sucks (but may have been deserved depending on the attitude of those other three).

      As for the DnD case, I don’t know what the mage’s intentions were, but what he said is a little different than “Arcane Blast does damage.” Maybe the mage thought the DK was unaware that DnD actually does have an increased threat modifier (I think it does 1.5x threat that it does damage or something) and since Frost tanks are getting increasingly rare, he was used to running with Blood tanks who are specced into a 15s CD on DnD and use it almost every group pull. Yeah for Frost DnD is unneeded, and it sounds like you and I and the tank know that, but perhaps this mage didn’t. Also I know a few of my guildies will inspect a tank immediately upon zoning into an instance, and if they see the tank gems/enchants/or specs incorrectly, even if it’s just a little incorrectly, they’re more prone to trying to offer some advice.

      Of course I could be completely wrong and the guy was just trying to be an asshole. But I’ve tanked heroics as a prot pally and as a DK long enough to know that no DPS is usually dumb enough to actively insult a tank who is doing a fine job of holding aggro, though they might offer some advice. Either way, I just try to be nice and say something like “thanks!” in a scenario like that. Unless they start being clear cut douchebag (ie “yeah it provides great aggro…something you don’t have”) in which case then yeah it’s DG the mob right next to the guy and don’t touch it again so it kills him. 0:-)

  10. I don’t see much of this behaviour in heroics. But then again I tend to not run heroics till after midnight. Unless….I’m tanking. Which got so bad that after I got the item I was looking for I gave up tanking randoms for non-guildies.

    That’s led me to the theory that when I DPS a random odds are I’m taking the spot a total jerk would have gotten.

  11. I actually don’t do Heroics very much, if at all. I’m not a raider, so what do I want the Frost emblems or gear for?

    And then one night I queued for a random normal dungeon and got Heroic Utgarde Pinnacle instead. I don’t really know how that happened.

    “Well!” thought I. “I really should try a Heroic at least once, because they’re in theory a greater challenge than normal dungeons. This might be more interesting than just another UP run.”

    I let people know I hadn’t queued for a heroic but had ended up here anyway, and thus I might not be as capable as they’re used to and I’d be fine to drop group so they can get another blah blah blah. Three of the group (except the healer) said it was OK, and the healer remained silent.

    As we approached Svala, the healer started getting snippy rude about my lack of health. I said the same thing I’d said at the beginning of the instance.

    “Not if I drop first,” he said, and quit.

    We got another healer and we made it through the instance with no problems whatsoever, but I’ve never done a Heroic since. There are too many rude idiots wanting to speed-run them as quickly as possible for their Frost Emblems. Not my cup of tea.

  12. As a non-raider, heroic pugs is pretty much all I do, as a discipline priest. I usually try to bring at least one friend from my guild. Although I feel sorry for those of you who have had bad experiences and been turned off LFD heroics, I have to say I rarely ever have a bag group. Mostly the group goes smoothly, albeit silently through to the last boss, we get out emblems and we go home. Sometimes we get a particularly talkative or even funny random group, other times a tank arrives with a lowish health pool in an ICC 5man that makes me cry a little. The DPS usually behave themselves. However in general I love doing heroics because you have to be flexible to suit the needs of your group, and there is a very clear sense of responsibility since, as a healer, four random people from across the globe are placing their faith in you for the next half an hour, and there is nothing like being told in a heroic pug “Great heals!”. My point is, you should give heroic pugging a chance again, you could learn to love it!

    • Aha! Good to see there’s more than one of us non-raiders around!

      I have to admit that the majority of my runs are pretty much so-so; nothing to write home about. The really bad ones tend to stick in my mind, but that’s normal, I suppose. Being DPS and having Healed before, I don’t complain when the tank has trouble with aggro. For me I see the pug as a challenge on how I handle my threat yet keep up enough damage to take the pressure off the healer.

      Probably the best compliment I ever had in a pug was in Gundrak, and I was by far the most over geared person there. Everyone else was a new 80, and I’ve so been there before. I confess that I struggled to keep from pulling aggro on the Warrior tank (I didn’t even bother with Divine Storm or Crusader Strike except on bosses), but right at the end one of the other DPS whispered to me “thanks for carrying us”.

  13. I actually wrote a post about this very same thing myself. Its even worse when your a tank trying to get emblems to get geared through HC’s. Its as if everyone forgets at some point that they had to run HC’s as well to get the good gear and now that they have it heaven forbid they don’t have a tank with 40K+ HP or GS coming out of his ears.

    And yet again, the people that should be reading this are the type of people that don’t do any (or very little) reading on their classes etc, so it tends to turn into preaching to the converted.

  14. Having read some of the fail-pug comments, I thought I would post an interesting one I had.

    The scene is Occulus. Just zoned in and I spot that the rest of the group bar one DPS are all from the same guild. Just as I am about to get going the Mage from aforementioned guild pipes up with “Hell no, not this tank. His HP is too low”. True, my HP was not epic but I was 5 defense off uncrittable from bosses and for gods sake its Occulus, not an ICC instance.

    I ignore him and we proceed. Throughout the entire instance, every pack pull sticks to me like glue and not once did I have to whack a cooldown to save my apparently inferior, metal clad, behind. Healer never went below 70% mana so it wasn’t as if I was pushing him to the max. And nery a single trash mob got pulled off me. They stuck to me as if they were in love with the reflections of themselves in my shiny plate and not once did they feel like going elsewhere.

    Eventually getting to Erygos, we get him down perfectly quickly to which I pipe up with “THAT tank wasn’t so bad now was he?”

    I am met with silence for a little while until I get asked to “Please leave”. Obviously they wanted to continue without me, even though it was a perfectly clean run.

    A typical group that has no patience to realise that not everyone dings 80 with fresh epics….

  15. I’ve been enjoying my little fury warrior (that’s DPS by the way) who’s at the awkward stage where every random dungeon is wailing caverns. So we zone in and the tank is a bear who immediately lets us know that he’s learning to tank and acknowledges that his gear/spec aren’t great. He knows his limitations and can communicate them. Awesome.

    The first few trash pulls go fine. Then we come to a bunch of raptors and our first druid of the fang. Our bear jumps in and promptly dies. Too big a pull and the mage wasn’t ready. A novice mistake but after the long run back, he says that he doesn’t want to tank anymore and that I can do it. He’ll help heal. The DPS warrior… who queued happily as DPS… whose gear and (few) talents are all DPS… who happens to have a shield in his bag. I don’t like tanking. It’s not my thing. But nobody else in the group is remotely qualified to tank so I agree and we continue on.

    Things go smoothly and then the Gloves of the Fang drop. They’re perfectly itemized for a DPS warrior with strength and agility beyond anything else available at this level so I roll need. The hunter passes on them and the others roll greed so I get the gloves. On the next pull, our ex-tank asks if he can have the gloves. I say no, they’re the best gloves I can get and he should have rolled need if he needed them. He then says that he missed the roll because he was *in Thunder Bluff at the time.* He’d apparently zoned out to do god only knows what. I don’t know what his spec was, but he seemed to think that he deserved them because they are leather and druids wear leather but warriors wear mail. After a long discussion about which classes wear which types of armor, they end up kicking me from the group. Needing on BiS gear for my main spec and refusing to give it away is apparently grounds for a kick. That’s fine. At least I have the gloves for my trouble.

    My “tank set” (which is really just DPS gear plus a shield and Cookie’s rolling pin) is getting a lot of use despite me not queuing as a tank. Being a back-up tank has actually made me more confident in my tanking abilities. I’d still rather endure a DPS queue than tank, but seeing so many people struggle has put to rest some of my own self-doubt. I’m not a great tank, but I’m not the worst either.

    Another thing I’ve noticed is that there are fewer heirloom queens in low-level PUGs. It seems like there was a wave of them as people ended up with more emblems than they could use, bought alt gear and have now leveled those heirloom alts past the lower level instances. From my experince, low-level instances are seeing a higher proportion of new players than was the case earlier this spring.

    I suspect a similar demographic shift is underway in heroics too. Raiding mains haven’t needed the gear or the emblems for a while now; their alts are probably nearing the end of their emblem grind as well.

    So who’s queuing for heroics these days?

  16. An apology

    I think I owe you guys and especially Vid an apology as this lack of patience is mine more than hers.

    For the first case above, to be honest, I did not even notice it. The guy was a jerk and that’s totally fair. I think all of you agree with that assessment as well.

    In the two other cases, I’m at the center of it. When we had the Old Kingdom instance, I was just coming off from getting an alt run through 3 hours of ICC where we downed 11 out of 12 bosses. It takes a lot of energy to do this and I should not be pugging after a run. But I did. My aggro, like it was in ICC, was very solid with a few mods slipping here and there as I had two dps who were very hard hitters. It’s normal and it just means I use taunt and bring things back in line. No problem, no one getting really whacked and smooth run. His DPS was below mine. I did not take his comment kindly which prompted the reaction from the rest of our guild group.

    For Occulus, the group had already made snarky comments before. I asked, as I always ask before we choose the drakes if everyone had done this instance before. One of them answers “Is the boss magical?” and other various comments. Again, since my dps is second from the top (while tanking), I don’t take it for granted that everyone had done this. We kill the boss with a couple of them whining about being pulled in, we take the drakes, fly straight up and head for the platform. They decide to go their way and then give me attitude for it. Again, I did not take it kindly. I replied politely and then left the group with Vid following me.

    In the two cases, I initiated the snarkiness and thus it should not reflect badly on her.

    To be honest, I probably suffer from tank ego. I know my class and my role perfectly well. I only play tanks. I will pull stuff back then you decide to starfall, I will do my best to ensure a very smooth run while at the same time dishing as much damage as most dps.

    I expect a couple of things in return:
    1. Don’t pull for me. No, don’t.
    2. I have done each heroic more than 40 times each. I know the way to make it as fast and safe as possible. Follow me and you’ll see.

    Things can slip at times and they will. One pull might not be perfect and a dps might get hit by a mob before my taunt is off cooldown to bring it back. It happens, nobody’s perfect.

    Fact is, a tank’s job right now is the hardest job in there. The healer’s job has gotten a lot easier as people geared up. Our job became harder. Those DPSers that had no hope in hell of pulling from us are now pushing so much dps through that we need to be good to keep everything in line (especially on the warrior, Howling Blast is OP for my DK).

    That’s why we’re the ones with instant queues because while a lot of dps can chat while instancing, I cannot. I’m giving everything I have on every pull so that your run is smooth. Most people just enjoy the ride, thank us for a smooth and fast run and that’s great. I do think that people owe just a bit of respect for the ones who are still willing to put up with all of this on a regular basis.

    Anyway, I do have a temper at times, I freely admit it. So this post was more about my temper than hers.

  17. Haha yeah LFD’ing after a night of raiding has never turned out well for me. But I’d suggest to just relax and have fun! DK tanking is a little more hands on than Prot Pally tanking but a little more hands off than Warr tanking, if you’re AoE tanking and you’re Frost. (Blood is a diff story, my tab button is completely worn out from how continuously I mash it during RS, ICC, or even heroic trash.) But just sit back! Relax! DK tanking is one of the most versatile and fun. If someone pulls aggro off you, big whoop, deathgrip them back in, it’s a sweet animation, and like Vid said, it’s a heroic so who cares in the end. If they give you attitude, just be super nice to them back. People notice. I’m in a guild that’s 10/12 Heroic ICC 25 so suffice to say we have plenty of elitist jerks on our roster. When I do a heroic with them they generally just asshole from the beginning to the end. The guys who apologize or just say “Let’s just get this done and get those emblems :)” are the ones that standout. And they usually aren’t bad, they just aren’t heroic icc 25 so my guildies act like they’re all inferior.

    Or if you want even less stress then spec Blood and just tank for raids. DK tanking is the second most OP single target threat so even in high level raids you don’t have to stress out too much as long as you have the proper priority system down. You say you only play tanks so I’m sure you know how great/fun it is! Don’t worry about the pug noobs! Have a blast!

    • Yeah, I know what you mean. Our guild is 11/12 ICC heroic and we do have quite the number of jerks or just dps that will pull whenever they can.

      I mostly tank for the raids now with the warrior being the ICC Heroic one and the DK with which I started tanking about 4 weeks ago. There really is no better role in this game than tanking. :-)

      My DK is actually dual specced frost/blood. I stay frost for heroics and for trash and switch to blood for bosses. I’m teamed with a warrior most of the time so the frost on trash is pretty useful. Howling Blast really is OP. A little HB, some pestilence and a bit of tabbing and things stick to you like glue. I do prefer the warrior tanking style still though.

      • Voss, have you tried all of the tanking classes? I’m curious about whether you have and have settled on Warrior for various reasons.

        Okay, your, let us say, lack of enthusiasm for Paladins is well known, but I’m curious about Druid tanks. I was talking with my blogmate Souldat last evening, and he was mentioning how he simply could not stand the Druid tank at all. He seems to have settled on the Warrior for tanking for the moment, but he did love the DK quite a while.

      • Yeah I know what you mean, in terms of AFK tanking, it goes Pally > Druid > DK > Warrior. So you’ve chosen the two most active tanking classes, which definitely make them the most fun. And since so many of the later progression fights seem to be encounter based, on nights the other Prot Pally in the guild isn’t there I have to switch back and forth fight to fight on my pally and DK tank.

        It wouldn’t be an issue if we could actually get a smart DK tank to apply. Our last one that applied didn’t have Vampiric Blood glyphed, had Improved Icy Touch (which isn’t a big deal, I’m not specced into it but it’s perfectly fine to do so I think) but he had Improved Icy Touch AND Glyph of Disease so he wasn’t even ever using Icy Touch because he’d use GoDisease to refresh his diseases, which cost him a blood rune so he couldn’t Heart Strike. We let him trial anyways and he just couldn’t keep threat off some of our guys. Had he manually refreshed his diseases and had another Heart Strike he would’ve been fine. I whispered him (very kindly) and told him he might want to consider that and got the “Thanks but it has always worked for me this way.”

        I’d much rather have a warrior tank anyways. Instead of 3 prot pallies, 2 druids, and a DK. Wtb tank sunders

      • Yup, actually I answered RedBeard below so you can see my assessment of the different classes. I just failed at reply. Right…

        To be honest, I’m not a great DK tank yet. Frost, I do well but I have so few opportunities to practice Blood (only in raids, only against bosses) that I know I don’t have the right rotation.

        I think it might be a reason why I never really managed to play any other classes than the warrior. I started with the one that’s the most active. Everything else feels like playing in slow motion.

        So which one do you prefer? Your pally or your dk?

      • Sorry for the double comment. It seems the reply went in the wrong spot.

        I have actually tried all 4 but to various degrees.

        The warrior was my first character (well, unless you count that hunter that got to level 2 and then got replaced, thank goodness). I love the style of the warrior especially since 3.0. The sheer mobility and the wide variety of tools is just a ton of fun. The feel of him is just a juggernaut. The warrior tank is, to me, still my favorite class by far. I rarely dps so my opinion is really about the prot warrior. I know fury is quite efficient but I find it boring to tears.

        The DK is my newest and second most interesting one. Again, quite the variety of tools. I do not like the rune system though. The warrior generates aggro using a priority list for each skill while the dk uses a rotation (closer to a rotation at least). I don’t like not having access to a crucial ability because the rune is on cooldown. I do like the feel of the DK tank though and especially the availability of ranged attacks. It does make fights like tanking Keleseth on BPC easier to do (although not as much fun as a charging warrior). I also love that he doesn’t lose all efficiency when forced to OT. If Blizz was to really screw up the warrior, I would consider making this one my main.

        The druid tank, I will admit, I did not level myself. I have tried Shae as a tank. To be honest, the survivability of having a ton of hp was good for the epeen but I found it rather boring to tank with. Because the class can do everything and the feral tree can actually fulfill two roles, I think there’s a lack of tools for the bear. It, honestly, felt like warrior light with more hp. Also, I would not play a class where I am never able to see my armour improvements.

        The pally, as you mentioned, is my personal nemesis. Fact is, I think they’re the best tank class out there right now. Their ability to survive death using the same skill that lowers the damage received by 35% is just massively overpowered. Their AoE threat is without rival (frost dk possibly but that’s it). I have found them to have a few minor problems on Saurfang because the tanks need to switch to single target when the beasts are coming out and also on LK when the spirits silence them. But those are very minor. I just hate the feel of it. Playing my pally, he felt smug, arrogant. Every single attack is so flashy that I felt I needed sunglasses. The class is very good, but the holier than thou feel of it completely turns me off.

      • Oh DK no question. Pally tanking is ridiculously boring, the only saving grace is making a pull with Avenger’s shield.

        if you want active then do some ICC trash in blood. It’s not quite as active as a warrior but you’ll DnD, spread diseases, then tab target and Rune Strike. Blood Boil barely does any threat even with diseases on the target so I forgo that Blood Rune and use it instead on Heart Strike’s cleave. I just hate that Rune Strike is on next swing. But you’d know all about On next swing playing a warrior.

        Blood’s pretty easy on bosses though. Just glyph Vampiric Blood, Rune Strike, and Death Strike, apply your diseases, then Death Strike, then Heart Strike, then Death Strike again. Keep Rune Strikes queued up and when all the runes are off cooldown you’ll have 2 blood runes and 4 death runes. So just spam Heart Strike until your diseases are about to fall off, then use a death rune to use Icy Touch. An unholy rune will pop up soon so Plague Strike with it. If you have diseases on your target with good duration and you have a Frost and Unholy rune available, Death Strike. Yada yada, macro every attack to Rune strike. Easy enough stuff.

        But the disease refresh and the timing and stuff makes it a lot more active than Pally tanking. Plus with the buffed Icy Touch threat and all the Heart Strikes you have boatloads of threat on the target, which is very nice when you have near BiS geared Hunters who aren’t big on Feign Death because it “wastes” a GCD.

    • Vermilian wrote:

      ’m in a guild that’s 10/12 Heroic ICC 25 so suffice to say we have plenty of elitist jerks on our roster. When I do a heroic with them they generally just asshole from the beginning to the end.

      This is probably the primary cause of me dropping random groups and taking a deserter debuff. Alarm bells go off whenever I pug into a group that’s 3 or 4 from the same guild. By far and away the worst attitudes I’ve ever seen have been from all-but-one guild groups. And yes, that’s saying something.

      I know not all guilds are like this, but I’ve seen too much of it, and I’ve got an itchy trigger finger. When I see a bunch from the same guild, I know there’s a pretty good chance they’ll treat me like the hired help. No, thanks. If you’re such hot stuff, you can find a healer from within your own guild–assuming she’d put up with you.

      • I have actually tried all 4 but to various degrees.

        The warrior was my first character (well, unless you count that hunter that got to level 2 and then got replaced, thank goodness). I love the style of the warrior especially since 3.0. The sheer mobility and the wide variety of tools is just a ton of fun. The feel of him is just a juggernaut. The warrior tank is, to me, still my favorite class by far. I rarely dps so my opinion is really about the prot warrior. I know fury is quite efficient but I find it boring to tears.

        The DK is my newest and second most interesting one. Again, quite the variety of tools. I do not like the rune system though. The warrior generates aggro using a priority list for each skill while the dk uses a rotation (closer to a rotation at least). I don’t like not having access to a crucial ability because the rune is on cooldown. I do like the feel of the DK tank though and especially the availability of ranged attacks. It does make fights like tanking Keleseth on BPC easier to do (although not as much fun as a charging warrior). I also love that he doesn’t lose all efficiency when forced to OT. If Blizz was to really screw up the warrior, I would consider making this one my main.

        The druid tank, I will admit, I did not level myself. I have tried Shae as a tank. To be honest, the survivability of having a ton of hp was good for the epeen but I found it rather boring to tank with. Because the class can do everything and the feral tree can actually fulfill two roles, I think there’s a lack of tools for the bear. It, honestly, felt like warrior light with more hp. Also, I would not play a class where I am never able to see my armour improvements.

        The pally, as you mentioned, is my personal nemesis. Fact is, I think they’re the best tank class out there right now. Their ability to survive death using the same skill that lowers the damage received by 35% is just massively overpowered. Their AoE threat is without rival (frost dk possibly but that’s it). I have found them to have a few minor problems on Saurfang because the tanks need to switch to single target when the beasts are coming out and also on LK when the spirits silence them. But those are very minor. I just hate the feel of it. Playing my pally, he felt smug, arrogant. Every single attack is so flashy that I felt I needed sunglasses. The class is very good, but the holier than thou feel of it completely turns me off.

      • There are jerks in the game regardless of whether they are guildied or not. If worse comes to worse I just turn off party chat. No reason to take a 30 min debuff to do something you can do in 10.

  18. I’m glad to see I’m not the only healer who feels guilt when a party member dies. Irrational as it is, since we all know it’s only a game, I too, take it personally. “Lost the Rogue!” can be heard every now and then. I have to apoligize for swearing to my kids when the tank goes down. I know it really not my fault, since my gearscore is more than sufficient for ICC 25 and I put my all into making sure everyone stays healed, but….things happen.

    My thanks go out to All the players who Tank and have to take cr@p from all the impatient DPS out there who expect 6k gs tanks to breeze them through every Heroic.

    I have had to insist a few low geared tanks stay in dungeons when they offered to leave after some bad pulls. I feel since Dungeon Finder came out, players are forgetting that dungeons are a team effort, not a DPS fest to be run in 15 minutes. Don’t get me wrong, I love LFD and levelled to 80 on my priestess in dungeons (lack of healers always meant a dungeon was waiting, even at 3 am)

    Love the Blog! Keep it Up!

  19. Pingback: Chowing down on a bit of stormcrow « Pugging Pally

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s